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lesbian lolitas 
8th-Jan-2008 03:53 pm
betty draper
feel free to delete if this is inappropriate for the community, but as a girl loving loli, i'm insanely curious regarding others like myself. are there any other lesbian or bisexual lolitas in this community? i'm also wondering:

-has wearing lolita ever alienated you from other so-called gay communities?/how so or how not
-how do you feel about lolita as such a strongly gendered/girly aesthetic?
-as a follow-up on the last question, does loli give you more gender mobility in some ways? does it ever limit you?

i have so so many more questions, but i'll just see if anyone responds to these first few before asking.

i used to feel really alienated from a lot of lesbian subcultures because of the way i dressed and perceived myself in general. when i first moved to bloomington, i spent a lot of my time hanging out with crusty folk punk and politically active "indie" folks, many of whom would perceive my interest in lolita as overly materialistic/non-progressively gendered/probably a symptom of my weak reliance on the patriarchy...or something like that. people were always bothering me for dressing like i "had money," was "better than everyone else" and most crushingly, they faulted me for "relying on dresses as a form of expression" when my so-called "personality" should speak for itself. for a brief period, i tried to wear pants, stop shaving, nix the make-up, etc. (non of which are bad choices, of course, they just didn't seem to suit me) but i ended up just feeling lame/even more unsure of myself. my identity was always so closely tied to "girliness," for lack of a better term, and i didn't feel comfortable without my pretty dresses.

however, i now see lolita as an interesting way to "perform" a hyperbolically feminine role without necessarily being duped by it (as a lot of my former friends seemed to think i was.) it's ridiculous to pretend that your clothing (regardless of what it might be) doesn't make some kind of political statement about you, so you might as well manipulate the archetype your fashion choices the way drag queens play with an image that doesn't necessarily represent their "real" selves but allows them--in a sense--to explore a performed self that's a hell of a lot more expressive than anything "real."

now that i'm a bit more comfortable in my own (entirely put-on) skin, i think most sub-cultures i interact with are accordingly more tolerant of my fashion choices. and there are always cute girls to grope the ruffles on my skirts, of course, which is an obvious added perk...
8th-Jan-2008 09:07 pm (UTC)
8th-Jan-2008 09:09 pm (UTC)
thanks, i'm not sure why i didn't join earlier.
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8th-Jan-2008 09:12 pm (UTC)
who can be 100% straight when there are such sexy aristocrat girls in existance?? :x
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8th-Jan-2008 09:13 pm (UTC)
Sorry to be so hasty with my answer.
Their are a lot of lesbian and bisexual lolitas in this community, thats why we not have the pride_lolita community. Some of our most active lolitas in egl are bisexual or lesbian. Wearing lolita has never alienated me from any LGBT community. Lolita being very feminine is what attracted me to it in the first place.
8th-Jan-2008 09:18 pm (UTC)
You should post your own answers to your questions, I think :)
8th-Jan-2008 09:19 pm (UTC)
I meant, in addition to asking for others' answers as well
8th-Jan-2008 09:20 pm (UTC)
I am bisexual although I currently have a girlfriend. Lolita is the only strongly female gendered fashion I wear, I tend towards cyber and whatnot otherwise but I don't dress in a particularly female fashion aside from this one thing.
I'm not sure if it's because Lolita has a certain element of the fantastic about it that enables me to go for something that is so strongly gendered. It has a feel of self parody, but in a good way.
8th-Jan-2008 09:36 pm (UTC)
mhm! the self parody is totally what i'm going for as well. :)
8th-Jan-2008 09:21 pm (UTC)
i consider myself pansexual.
seing as i'm not involved in the glbt scene at all, i've never experienced any kind of alienation lol.
i've always been a rather girly girl so the very feminine lolita aesthetic obviously appeals to me, or else i wouldn't be wearing it. (duh -_-)
honestly, my sexuality & fashion choices have little to do with one another so i personally don't see any correlation when it comes to 'gender mobility' or what have you.
13th-Jan-2008 08:04 pm (UTC)
I consider myself ambisexual. Hi-5 for the specific wordage! I hate the connotation people get from the word "bisexual" and it has so many different meanings to different people!
8th-Jan-2008 09:23 pm (UTC)
I'm bisexual myself (even if it doesn't really matter, as I have a boyfriend^^) and of course if I would have had a girlfriend it would have been great if she'd dressed lolita herself. The only girl I was really in love with once had quite a girly and cute style too.
- I'm not "in the scene" or in any communities, so it hasn't alienated me^^
- girls I that appeal to me aesthetically are the "girly kind of girls", I love feminine clothing, elegance and cuteness
- it limits me in the way that people see me, because of course the first impression (and maybe later ones too) are influenced by my clothing style, but that's partly intended and I wouldn't accept wrong assumptions ;)
8th-Jan-2008 09:28 pm (UTC)
Sup? 8D I suppose I'd consider myself bisexual, leaning toward girls.

-has wearing lolita ever alienated you from other so-called gay communities?/how so or how not
I've never really been inclined to join one, tbh. I tend to just randomly meet gay/bi people irl. The only LGBT comm I'm involved with at all is pride_lolita. I just can't be bothered somehow.

-how do you feel about lolita as such a strongly gendered/girly aesthetic?
I dunno...I like being girly? It's pretty? The frills are what drew me to the fashion in the first place.

-as a follow-up on the last question, does loli give you more gender mobility in some ways? does it ever limit you?
...? I dunno. I've never really felt limited in any way, so... sorry, my brain's not working today. :/
8th-Jan-2008 09:31 pm (UTC)
I am bisexual... actually i prefer pansexual too.
-I am not in any gay communities (i just joined pride lolita)
-I actually think it's very agreable that way, at least for me it has been helpful. I was always very tomboy-ish and this fashion made me start wearing skirt dfor example.
8th-Jan-2008 09:33 pm (UTC)
I consider myself a lesbian even though I have a boyfriend (I'm just mostly attracted to women, and my boyfriend is really the only guy I'm sexually attracted to - I usually just call myself bi because it's easier), and I wore loli to True Colors last year (not sure if it's only a Connecticut thing or only a US thing, but it's kind of like a sexuality convention), and everyone loved it, so I don't think I've personally been estranged from the "gay community" in it.
I don't really understand the other two questions though, so I'll just stick to that one ^_^;;
8th-Jan-2008 09:47 pm (UTC)
Bisexual lolita, represent.

8th-Jan-2008 10:51 pm (UTC)

= D
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8th-Jan-2008 10:02 pm (UTC)
oh no, don't apologize! it's interesting that the kind of rejection i felt really carries over to all just so happened that for awhile, all the lesbian girls i knew fit into said punk cultures.

the town i now live in has a particularly active punk/diy music scene, and while i love the comraderie/intimacy that its house shows and small venues represent, it's pretty easy to feel left out when you're a loli girl in a sea of crust kids. ;) same goes (to a lesser extent) with bloomington's tiny goth scene. other cities have seemed a bit more friendly though, so maybe it all depends on place and context?
8th-Jan-2008 10:01 pm (UTC)
When I was younger it was much more important (and "safe") to belong to the cliché of the gay communities. Like wearing pants and having short haircuts if you were female. But we all grew up and just realised that it was more important to just stay true to ourselves - and that there were girls who would like us for it.
I might be wrong, but I can relate to the friends of yours who seemed to have had a somewhat of a separatistic view on gender, fashion and everything inbetween the two subjects. As in having friends who expressed such opinions, not having those opinions myself.
Personally, I think it's too much politics. For me it basically just comes down to personal taste and what type of girls you're in to.
8th-Jan-2008 10:08 pm (UTC)
originally, i found it too annoying to deal with my clothes as a "symbol" of something else (which was why i initially tried to "belong" with said cliche communities) but the fact that i came under so much scrutiny kind of forced me to re-examine/defend my reasons for wearing ruffly expensive dresses. if you don't want to insanely deconstruct the politics of your wardrobe, you're right, you shouldn't and you shouldn't have to. for me though, it's an important part of the inner conversations i have regarding who i am/what matters to me.
8th-Jan-2008 10:11 pm (UTC)
I'm an bisexual guy, I've never felt alienated, but then agian, im not so into the lgbt community..

I think you need to stop listening to people that say stuff like "people were always bothering me for dressing like i "had money," was "better than everyone else" and most crushingly, they faulted me for "relying on dresses as a form of expression" when my so-called "personality" should speak for itself."
Thoose are not friends! You are expressing yourself with your clothingstyle!

And you should wear pants, stop shaving etc only because some people think you should do that!
8th-Jan-2008 10:18 pm (UTC)
Totally OT, but, Bloomington, IN? I'm in Muncie at university right now.
8th-Jan-2008 10:30 pm (UTC)
mhm! hello, fellow indiana loli. :)
8th-Jan-2008 10:32 pm (UTC)
Also in the pansexual category here ^^ Thinking on this, I realize almost every gay pride or event I go to, I'm wearing lolita... I've never had a negative reaction, quite the opposite from both genders, drag queens and kings, etc... They all seem to love it and always ask me 5 million questions. What's nice is that they don't automatically view my clothing nor it's label as a fetish-oriented thing like so many other people (and subcultures) do, it's just something pretty and different to them and they like it.

how do you feel about lolita as such a strongly gendered/girly aesthetic?

I think it's what drew me in, personally. I like girlish things, I like being a girl, I like wearing a bunch of frills and having pretty accessories, so on and so forth. I am sad though that there isn't much leeway for more masculine styles... So many of my male friends want to dress in an equivalent of lolita (not cross-dressing) because they like the aesthetic of the style, but it's hard to help them since there are so few choices on how to dress older guys without making them look like Dracula ^^

I went off a little there, sorry, I'm not even sure I answered the question.

Anyway, perhaps I live in a pretty relaxed city, I've never had any issues with anyone in the glb-community or of any of the other subculture AND mainstream scenes whilst wearing lolita. I think it actually helps me assimilate with the various groups because no one knows what to make of me. I work at a nightclub so I get to meet them all, and you'd be surprised how many crazy Prada-and-Gucchi-wearing bonbon yuppie girls love lolita .__.;
8th-Jan-2008 10:34 pm (UTC)
i pretty much hate saying i'm bisexual because it's become such a fad... like something girls do in college before they settle down and marry men and have babies.

that being said, i am bisexual, and i came out to my parents when i was 12 or 13. i find the current relationship that i have with my boyfriend very difficult because i just *miss* girls so much. he thinks that one person of either sex should be enough, that it's the same... but to me it's different. it's a different love. i dunno. it's something we have to work out for sure. maybe i'm just selfish.

anyway, i'm not involved in the gltb per se, but i am heavily involved in our "goth scene" which seems to nurture the feminine in everyone. so i go to a club and dance alongside transvestites, straights, friends in polyamorous relationships, etc, and i'm never judged. i suppose i'm lucky that way. (^_^)
8th-Jan-2008 11:24 pm (UTC)
I agree with bisexuality seeming like a fad...I've been interested in both men and women since I was much younger, but these days it seems like EVERYONE is doing it.
8th-Jan-2008 10:40 pm (UTC)
I describe myself as a hetero-romantic pansexual with a STRONG preference for girls/anything that looks enough like a girl (i.e chick with dicks)
*up yours people who think sexuality is black white and gray :P*

i live in the city, the whole "lesbians are butch" thing is something we constantly make fun of here. there’s LOOOOTS of girly lesbian (as well an the more masculine kind) but its not like you’re not a REAL lesbian if you’re not butch thing that I see happening in smaller towns.

I've never felt alienated from the gay scene at all (the the drag queens love me as well as a few “sissy” guys) but maybe that’s because I'm mostly only involved in it in a political level…and in a Pride Parade level (which is a little bit political but I think mostly its just one big gay party). i don’t tend to hang at gay bars and stuff at all. People here in Miami tend to care lots about looks…so its not like I'm the weird vain girl, everyone (gay or straight) here is just about as vain as I am (most are a little more actually) only my idea of pretty is different from theirs and most understand that, some don’t like the way I dress but they never put me down because of it at all…
8th-Jan-2008 10:49 pm (UTC)
hetero romantic? does that mean you tend toward girls in relationships with a stronger sexual dynamic and tend toward guys in relationships with a stronger, er, romantic feel? not judging, of course...i'm exceptionally curious because i might fit a similar description if you mean what i think you mean.
8th-Jan-2008 10:46 pm (UTC)
I'm a lesbian lolita! I'm very feminine though, and I have a lot of gay guy I've always had the problem of people assuming I'm just a fag hag whenever I'm at a gay club/bar/concert/etc. However, all of my queer friends, male/female/otherwise, have all said that a lesbian lolita is the cutest thing ever, so I never feel like it has alienated me in any way.

As far as it being very feminine, that's why I love it! It doesn't help or hurt my gender mobility, because I'm quite feminine in all that I do, so lolita fits me rather than inhibits me.
8th-Jan-2008 10:52 pm (UTC)
lesbian lolitas ARE the cutest thing ever, but i'm biased of course. :)
8th-Jan-2008 10:53 pm (UTC)
I'm a lesbian lolita myself. I consider myself femme to the extreme but I don't have any one way of representing myself clothing-wise. Like, some days I'll be wearing dresses and the next I'll be wearing boy jeans and polos. I'm very politically active, very out of the closet, I do presentations for my classes whenever I can about gay rights... but now I'm going to hurry along with the other questions because I've only got a few minutes left before I have to take my heart-shaped cupcakes out of the oven :D

-has wearing lolita ever alienated you from other so-called gay communities?/how so or how not
I don't feel alienated at all, but that's because I've never shown up at the gay coffee shop or a women's bar dressed in Loli. Haha. If I did, I might get some odd looks, but no more than when I wear lolita to the mall I'm sure. Either way, my girlfriend thinks it's really hot when I'm dressed up.
-how do you feel about lolita as such a strongly gendered/girly aesthetic?
Even though I can't wear it, I'm a huge fan of the color pink. I also love femininity. I'm actually okay with stratified gender but that's because I'm a radical leaning feminist rather than simply liberal. Woo, girl power.
-as a follow-up on the last question, does loli give you more gender mobility in some ways? does it ever limit you?
I think the only thing limiting lesbian lolitas is the stereotype that lesbians have to be butch and non-frilly. Not that butch chicks aren't hot too :D Maybe next Pride Parade I'll wear lolita.
8th-Jan-2008 10:53 pm (UTC)
: ) Bisexual lolita as well!
Don't let it get in the way; if people like you for who you are, both in your sexuality and your clothing choices, then they are your true friends. Those who say that your clothes don't match your sexuality, or your sexuality doesn't match your clothes are obviously a little too closed-minded, and don't understand the way you think.

<3! Besides, as someone already said; how could anyone stay totally straight with such beautiful dolls walking among us?
Most girls like dolls, right?
9th-Jan-2008 08:24 am (UTC)
Oh lord. I agree with the last sentence so much and identify with it on so many levels.
8th-Jan-2008 10:57 pm (UTC)
I'm bisexual, but when I started college last year, my friends found it difficult to believe it because of my lolita clothes. Although one of the girls I hang around with is a lesbian and she's great, she thinks I look cute in my loli but thinks that my normal grungey stuff suits my personality more. I couldn't really say how communities comment on my clothes because they are pretty none existant where I live.
8th-Jan-2008 11:09 pm (UTC)
I consider myself more or less straight, so I just have a comment on the second half of your post!

I get that feeling a lot! I will goto the punk shows and mingle with the crusty, diy, save the planet, dont shave your legs type people all the time. I like them, and agree with a lot of their viewpoints, but do not feel accepted by their group one bit. As hard as they try to stress how accepting of all lifestyles, etc, they are, I often feel that they are just as judgmental as other groups.
8th-Jan-2008 11:19 pm (UTC)
I myself have kind of gotten over the whole 'being alienated from the gay community' thing. At least, as far as my school is concerned. I go to a private all-girls school and one of the first things I was told by the 'Lesbian Mafia' as they call themselves was that 'I wasn't gay enough for them' because I like the color pink, makeup and lace. They told me many similar things that they original poster was told. People also have a hard time believing that I'm a lesbian for some reason because I don't play with power tools or flounce around in flannel. (A Baby JSK in a cute tartan suits me better, I think.) I'm not saying that's what all lesbians are like, naturally. It's just that such a thing seems to be what is expected of me by a vast majority of people in my area. It's annoying to be expected to follow a stereotype all the time.

I love the girly look of Lolita which is why I wear it. My friend once joked that it was 'the ultimate look for lipstick lesbians'. It's sort of a running gag between us.

I haven't really thought much about gender mobility and the things related to it. I suppose if I feel limited, I'd stop wearing it. I love the way it looks and I think the dichotomy of what is expected of me as a gay woman by some people (i.e. the power tools and flannel)and what I actually am like (i.e. the lace and the ruffles).

All in all it really just boils down to the fact that I wear and love Lolita because it makes me happy. And if something makes me happy then I don't really stop to think about what other people think of it.
9th-Jan-2008 08:30 am (UTC)
On a really odd note if you live in an area that's cold in winter you can combine the lace, ruffles and flannel (as long as it's a pattern that would lend itself to cuteness) for a winter lolita outfit. I can understand the power tools and flannel bit being that I love making stuff and handling power tools. I find it fun. On the other hand I also love looking pretty and feminine but there are sometimes when jeans and a tee shirt do better than lace and frills. On a fairly shallow sounding(to me at least) level I understand the "I want to be pretty but I like girls" bit as well.
8th-Jan-2008 11:20 pm (UTC)
I'm bisexual, and actually I find that people in the gay community-men and women-generally really like lolita style. I constantly get told how "adorable" I am. I think a lesbian couple where one girl is a lolita and one dresses in boystyle is adorable, but I also love the aesthetic of two lolitas together. If I wasn't dating someone I would love to have an adorable lolita girlfriend. XD Interestingly, a lot of lolitas seem to be bisexual (or at least bicurious, or somehow interested in the idea of lolita love affairs).

And yes, I agree about the expressive aspect of clothing. I feel better when I'm wearing an outfit that I think expresses an aspect of my personality-rather than bland old jeans and a t-shirt. I like to stick out from the crowd, and I like dressing in a way that allows me to so. I think it's the same with any subculture-drag queens included. XD
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